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we'll give you

- this next installment of conversations

and in this series some of you will be

familiar that we are seeking to put

before you Christian scholars who are

experts in their respective fields we

ask them to come and to present in a

consistently Christian fashion of you on

an assigned topic and to do so in a way

that anticipates that prompts and that

even invites questions from others of

opposing convictions we believe that

Christianity is intellectually credible

and we therefore believe that questions

can and should be welcomed welcomed and

addressed with humble candor and so we

hope that's the kind of setting that

you'll find here in this room this

evening now with all due respect to

social media and the admittedly

wonderful things that it brings to us in

terms of communication believe it or not

our goal in this series is not that you

would like our church on Facebook

that's not why we've gone about this

task we actually want to do something

much more substantive we want to have

meaningful relationship with you we want

to have meaningful dialogue and of

course if that occurs over social media

that's perfectly fine but we'd like to

sit down with you and get to know you as

a human being and vice versa

one author said it this way we live in a

time of breakthrough technologies but in

a time of the breakdown of communication

itself and we believe that we need to be

able as image bearers to sit down and to

talk through those things that are of

most ultimate significance for all of us

so our hope is that this series in its

own small little way will just be a part

of remedying that sad state affairs of

broken communication in a broken world

well tonight we have the privilege of

hearing from dr. Scott olefin he's a

professor of apologetics that simply

means the defense of the Christian faith

a professor of apologetics at

Westminster Theological Seminary

in Philadelphia Pennsylvania he's going

to be speaking to us on the question of

the existence of an eternal all-powerful

and good God alongside the existence of

a created world in which there is real

suffering and real evil and so the

question that's presented is can these

two realities coexist or does one

necessitate the abandonment of the other

well dr. Olivet comes to us with the

competence and the humility that the fit

a Christian scholar and we think you'll

agree as you hear from him this evening

just a few logistical matters before we

get started

dr. Olivet is going to speak on his

topic and then immediately we'll segue

to a time of open question and answer

and you'll see these two microphones

we're asking you if you have a question

don't be bashful just come to a

microphone and ask your question to dr.

Olivet now if you're if you are shy and

that's a little intimidating you're free

to write down your question and maybe

find someone who'd be willing to bring

it up to dr. elephant for you that's not

a problem at all but just whatever your

question might be you might want to jot

it down as dr. elephant speaks and then

ask him just free ring and then also you

were issued a comment card when you came

in our desire there is that you would

fill that out let us know your reaction

to our evening and then give that back

to the ushers when you exit at the end

of our time together and also when you

exit if you are interested and we

reiterate only if you are interested the

ushers will have a card that they'll be

handing out where you can receive an

offer if you'd like to purchase a book

at a discounted price

dr. Oliphant has just come out with a

new book about apologetics about the

defense of the Christian faith and if

you'd like to learn more about that or

to purchase a copy of that book at a

discounted price you can retrieve one of

these but there's certainly no pressure

and I'd encourage you if you're here and

you're not a believer in Christ you're a

skeptic what a great place to go read

one of our apologetics books and see see

the arguments that maybe you disagree

with and see why you disagree with them

it's a

wonderful way to continue that dialogue

again it's a privilege to be here with

you all this evening and now for a

potentially awkward moment as we start

our time together but it's an awkward

moment that actually really gets to the

heart of why we have this series in the

first place I want to open our time

together in prayer prayer to a God the

god of the Scriptures whom some of you

may deny or whose existence you may

doubt and we acknowledge that

awkwardness and yet this is the God on

whom we really do depend in every aspect

of our lives as a Church of Jesus Christ

so if you are inclined join us in prayer

and if you're not inclined

we're not offended in the least let us

bow together in prayer as we begin

tonight so our God we come before you

this evening with the sorts of questions

the sorts of questions that have made

job such a well-known figure both inside

and outside the church where are you in

the midst of evil and suffering is it

possible that you can love a people and

yet allow those people to suffer

hardship and affliction at the same time

some claim that you are a mere self

created religious crutch for the weak

and the naive others even here this

evening or perhaps angry with you over

suffering that they have endured and so

have sought and frustration to silence

your voice god we pray that by your

grace we might come to terms with who

you truly are with your goodness with

your power and with the reality of human

sin and mercy of God in the Lord Jesus

Christ may this time be fruitful and

they we develop truly meaningful

relationships and dialogue as image

bearers as we consider

these ultimate things for we pray in

Christ's name Amen well without further

ado please join me in welcoming dr.

Scott all of them

well it's a pleasure to be back in Tampa

it's more of a pleasure in January but

it's still a pleasure in September as

the cool front moves Philadelphia today

and we go back down into the 70s it is

nevertheless great to be here with all

of you I've been here a few times I've

never had the privilege of being in this

building and I commend the church here

for the work that they have done in

their ministry and the work that they

are doing in this community my task this

evening as you heard is to answer the

question if God is good why is there

suffering and evil all right now some of

you may not be able to stay until the

end some of you may be able to stay

until the end but you will be snoozing

within a few minutes so I want to do you

a favor and give you the answer to that

question now so in case you need to

leave or in case you need to catch a few

winks you can do that if God is good why

is there suffering and evil the answer

is I don't know but what's important for

us to recognize this evening is why I

don't know and what I do know about what

I don't know so that's what I want us to

talk about this evening some of you will

know of Anthony flue Anthony flue was

one of those British philosophers there

seems to be a rash of these I don't know

if it has something to do with Britain

particularly but there are rash of

British philosophers who spend or have

spent most of their lives in an attempt

to discredit Christianity and flu was

one of those and he told the pair a

parable many years ago now parable of

the invisible garden

a parable of two people walking through

a jungle to explore sand in the midst of

this jungle they come across a

beautifully manicured garden and the

first Explorer says look there's a

garden there must be a gardener look how

beautiful this is compared to the chaos

around us its manicured it's organized

there must be a gardener

the second Explorer was sceptical and he

said well I don't know I don't think so

but we'll wait and see so they waited

some time but no gardener appeared and

the second Explorer said well how do you

explain that and he said well the

gardener is invisible well okay what do

you suggest we do

second Explorer said how about this we

we set up a tripwire maybe he's

invisible but perhaps tangible we'll set

up a tripwire we'll bring in the

bloodhounds so at least there would be a

way to detect the gardener so they set

up the wire they brought in the dogs

they waited a while nothing happened and

the second Explorer said see there's

there's no gardener there's no such

thing

gardener doesn't exist and the first

Explorer said yes he does but he's

invisible and he's intangible and he's

undetectable and so the second Explorer

said well I want you to tell me this

then what's the difference between an

invisible intangible undetectable

gardener and no gardener at all now

maybe you can see what flues point is in

that parable he was aiming it at

Christians and flu was the one who said

see what you Christians do when we talk

about proof for God's existence you keep

adding qualifications well he's

invisible well he's intangible and so

flu said your God you Christians your

God has died the death of a thousand

qualifications there's no way he can

exist now flu in those days was making

more of a linguistic point it was

during the days of what's called

verification ISM and flu was trying to

make the point that any position that

you hold that is not even possibly

falsifiable can't be true

now I'm happy to tell you this evening

that Fluzone position died the death of

a thousand qualifications and nobody

holds that position anymore but what's

even less well known in flus telling of

that parable is what he said after it

here's what flu said he said someone

tells us that God loves us as a father

loves his children and we are reassured

but then we see a child dying his

heavenly father reveals no obvious sign

of concern so some qualification is made

then flu asks this question just what

would have to happen he says to entitle

us to say God does not exist what would

have to occur to constitute for you a

dis proof of the existence of God so

flus conclusion was I can't believe in

your God too many qualifiers

there's no way could be falsified and

his point was it is irrational to

believe in such a god but not so much

because of the gardener in the design of

the garden but because of the reality

that flew saw all around him of

suffering it's called the problem of

evil that's how it's been denominated

across the spectrum of history both in

philosophy and in theology and the

problem of evil has a very distinctive

philosophical apologetic element to it

but you and I know as you sit here this

evening and probably you're thinking

this and you ought to be thinking this

it's not just a philosophical problem

this is one of those issues we're not

reasoning in the abstract we can't just

sit back in our cozy chair and Stroke

our chin and say I wonder about evil

because every one of us in this room has

been profoundly affected by it and you

are affected by it even now in profound

ways so it is one of those areas in

apologetics where the philosophical and

the pastor will merge together you

cannot separate the two you can make a

distinction which I'll try to do in a

minute but you cannot separate the two

it is a profoundly pastoral that is

personal problem for us number of years

ago when my son was in high school a

student who knew him and knew of his

testimony of being a Christian without

prompting friend of his in class passed

him this note this friend said I know

the Bible very well I used to try to

follow God but I can't anymore because I

realized that I don't love him I just

fear eternal damnation there are three

main mysteries in the Bible as I see it

freewill and predestination that's one

the Trinity number two and number three

the origin of evil the first to a

student continues I'd be content to not

understand but not the third how can it

not bother you I love people I know

human nature I know people are evil but

obviously we were created this way if

Eve ate the apple people are searching

earnestly why would God allow evil

obviously to test us but he already knew

that all would fall short now that's

from a high school student

saying I can no longer love God because

of this problem the intensity of it of

suffering and evil you open up a

newspaper you turn on the television you

see it daily

we're inundated with the problem so I do

want to try to address it this evening

but I want to try to address it in it's

too varied aspects and I decided again

recognizing the attention span of the

average American adult which if what the

experts say is right our attention span

is eight seconds so we lost you at

Dustin's introduction probably better

than that for most of us but what I

decided to do then was to try to address

first of all the philosophical side of

the problem and so I'm warning you that

we're going to go into that in a bit of

detail first but not solely that but

because they merge I want you to see at

least how the philosophers have tried to

explain this or the objection that they

give to what I believe what many of you

believe in our understanding of who God

is so what exactly is the problem when

we talk about the problem of evil it

begins with the character of God all

right make note of that at least

mentally if not physically make note of

that it begins with the character of God

the catechism that I subscribe to as one

that teaches biblical truth asks the

question what is God here's the answer

God is a spirit in and of himself

infinite in being glory blessedness and

perfection all sufficient eternal

unchangeable in

comprehensive Oh everywhere present

almighty knowing all things most wise

most holy most just most merciful and

gracious long-suffering an abundant in

goodness and truth there is but one only

the living and true God there are three

persons in the Godhead the Father the

Son and the Holy Ghost and these three

are one true eternal God the same in

substance equal in power and glory

although distinguished by their personal

properties that is the God of whom I

speak this evening containing all of

those attributes that are listed there

and there are biblical references for

them all

so the problem then becomes this and

this is the way it's put to by the

philosophers all the way back to

Epicurus as far as we can tell third

century BC but then made prominent again

in the history of thought by David Hume

and John Stuart Mill and many many

others the problem is this there are two

propositions two sentences two

statements and they go like this the

first one is God is omniscient

omnipotent and wholly good completely

good and only good God is omniscient he

knows everything he's omnipotent he's

all-powerful and he's only and

completely good that is the god of whom

the scripture speaks who himself wrote

that scripture and then there's the

second statement there is horrendous

evil in the world

now you can begin to feel I hope you can

sense the problem the tension with those

two propositions and how do you begin to

resolve that well one suggestion that

has been given that some have taken up

actually is that it's fairly simple all

you need to do is get rid of one of

those attributes of gods and then the

problems resolved so some would say well

let's say that God is omnipotent

all-powerful and completely good but

he's not omniscient he doesn't know

everything so the reason there's evil is

because when God created he just didn't

know just didn't know what was going to

happen he crossed his fingers he waited

ringing his invisible hands and hoping

but lo and behold it came now that

releases the tension but the problem is

it flies in the face of what God says

about himself so others have said well

okay God is omniscient but we can affirm

that he knows everything he is God after

all and before there was creation there

was only God Father Son and Holy Spirit

how could he not know exhaustively

anything that he brings in to being so

he knows everything but the problem you

see is God is not omnipotent he's not

all-powerful so he knew it was going to

happen but he didn't have the ability

the power to stop it their tension

resolved there's evil because God

couldn't stop it and there are some who

want to hold to that view the problem is

that it flies in the face of what God

has said about himself you have to

ignore God's own revelation of himself

in order to opt for that choice and then

not very many but there are a few

marginal who would say well we just say

he's not wholly good that there are some

kind of motives in God that aren't

completely wholly

that is again outside of the pale of

what God says about himself so what do

we do with these two statements God is

who he says he is and there's evil in

the world well notice a couple of things

and remember here now I'm just dealing

with it more in terms of the

propositions themselves first of all

this is not as someone to say this is

not a contradiction all right if it were

a contradiction we would have to say God

is omniscient omnipotent holy good and

God is not omniscient omnipotent holy

good that's a contradiction so in terms

of the canons of formal logic there's no

contradiction embedded in these two

statements so that's off the table we

don't talk about contradictions so what

is it then when we feel the tension what

is it between these two things well the

best we can do here I think is to say

that there's some kind of

incompatibility between this character

of God and the abundance of evil in the

world but now here's the philosophical

point for those who Lodge this objection

and maybe you're one of them you have to

reckon with the fact that the

incompatibility has to be a necessary

incompatibility in which there is no

possibility that it could be other than

incompatible there's no possibility that

it could be anything but incompatible

now why does it have to be necessary

because if it's not a necessary

incompatibility okay I can see the eight

seconds are about up here attention span

is waning if it's not a necessary

incompatibility

what's your only other option if it's

not necessary then it's only possibly

incompatible do you see that point

that's its basic philosophically but

maybe you haven't thought in those terms

before or in awhile if it's not

necessarily incompatible it's only

possible

incompatible and if it's possibly

incompatible then possibly not

incompatible you see it moves then from

a necessary incompatibility to only a

probability even if one would want to

hold it it's a high probability how

would you determine such a thing so one

of the ways that some including me this

evening have wanted to show that there's

no necessary incompatibility here is to

create another statement that shows that

the two positions the existence of God

in the existence of evil might actually

be compatible here's the statement it is

possible it is true my view but all I

have to say here because it's a defense

I'm answering an objection it is

possible that the depth of God's

character precludes our ability entirely

to comprehend God's plan for his

creation okay I'm going to go slowly

listen it is possible that the depth of

God's character precludes our ability

entirely to comprehend God's plan for

his creation see that if that statement

is true then there's no necessary and

compatibility between the existence of

God and existence of evil because it's

possible that God is such that we can't

comprehend the depth of his plan for

creation now you can hear the objection

perhaps someone might say no it is not

possible that the depth of God's

character is such that it precludes the

existence of evil then my question would

be how do you know how do you know that

it is impossible that the depth of God's

character see the answer how would you

answer that quick to answer that

question you're immediately driven to

how you know about God

aren't you and that's why it's a great

question that's why you want that

question so there's no necessary

incompatibility because it's possible

that God is so deep that we can't

understand it all so many philosophers

have said ok I grant you the

incompatibility problem can't be

necessary so then they move to the

problem of probability and say that the

evidence is so overwhelming for the

existence of evil that it's highly

improbable

that you're kind of God exists

one man wrote a book a number of years

ago entitled God and inscrutable evil

what do you mean by that what he meant

was the problem is not just some pain in

some suffering where you can perhaps see

a good result or a good end to it take

your child to the doctor and the doctor

inflicts a little pain on the child in

order to make the child well that's good

and this author would say that's not

really the crux of the problem but he

says the crux of the problem is what he

calls inscrutable evil and what he means

by that is evil for which there is no

what he calls God justifying reason for

it no God justifying reason for that

evil and he wrote wrote a whole book

about it now why does he think that

there needs to be a God justifying

reason for it well that has a long

history as well it goes way back in the

history of thought and even in the

history of theology and it's called a

theodicy a theodicy th co di see why

theodicy is taken from two greek words

the first one you can see they ask God

dick I us justification so a theodicy is

an attempt

to justify God in the midst of suffering

and evil live nets someone some of you

will be familiar with the rationalist

philosopher Leibniz 17th into the early

18th century wrote a book entitled

theodicy wrestling with this very

question and he designated evil as

natural and moral but also metaphysical

evil and what he meant by metaphysical

evil was that God could not create

another God all right are we okay with

that we would agree with that

if God created another god how could

what he created be God when to be God

you must be uncreated all right so God

cannot create another so whatever God

created has to be less than God and less

than God means less than perfect and

imperfect means evil now like many

philosophers it's ingenious but like

most philosophers it's completely

outside the bounds of what God has told

us about himself so that's the Odyssey

false of its own weight others in the

history of the church have tried to deal

with it this way and Agustin one of the

great geniuses in the history of the

church thinking about this problem

Agustin came out of a context in which

at one point he held two manichaean ism

how many of you have been Manicheans

before no you wouldn't know such thing

anymore but the man of keys during the

time of Agustin 4th century in the 5th

century held that good and evil were

ultimate two things warring against each

other side by side ultimate good and

evil and when Agustin was converted he

knew now

his reading of what God had said that

that's not the case so Agustin began to

wrestle with how can we think then about

evil if God created everything

how does evil fit into that and

Agustin's solution was evil is not a

thing God created everything but evil

Agustin said is a lack of something

dependent on something good and lacking

that in order to be what it is

so the way that we speak about things

that are evil or anymore we talk about

em morality all right

immorality depends for what it is on

what morality exactly it's a negation of

morality unrighteousness depends on

righteousness so Agustin went through to

argue his case that evil as he put it as

theologians are want to do in the Latin

evil is a private a Oh Bonnie a

privation of the good a negation of what

is ultimately good now later on in the

history of the church others began to

recognize wait a minute are you telling

me at the pain and the suffering that

I'm enduring is nothing it's not a thing

of course not so that's only partially

helpful because evil is something that

we experience and is as real as our very

existence isn't it so how then do we

think about evil all right that's the

philosophical side in one sense the

objections then are put off to the side

and what I want to do

is move us this evening and the time we

have remaining briefly here I want to

move us from theodicy to theophany I'll

tell you what that means if you don't

know in just a minute but in order to do

that I want to read briefly a passage

from Exodus chapter 3 Exodus chapter 3

is of course it's the book that tells us

about the Exodus in chapter 3 is God's

calling of the Old Testament mediator

Moses to accomplish God's releasing of

his people from slavery to Egypt Exodus

3 verse 7 and the Lord said I've surely

seen the affliction of my people who are

in Egypt and have heard their cry

because of their taskmasters I know

their sufferings and I've come down to

deliver them out of the hand of the

Egyptians and to bring them up out of

that land to a good and broad land a

land flowing with milk and honey to the

place of the Canaanites the Hittites the

Emirates the Perizzites the Hivites and

the Jebusites and now behold this the

cry of the people of Israel has come to

me and I've also seen the oppression

with which the Egyptians oppress them

come I will send you to Pharaoh that you

may bring my people the children of

Israel out of Egypt God calling Moses

from what where is this calling coming

from in Exodus 3 the bush that did not

burn that Moses saw out of which came

the voice of the Lord Himself saying

take off your sandals from your feet for

the place on which you stand is holy

ground so God calls Moses to release to

be the agent of release

of the children of Israel from Pharaoh

and what does Moses do he says great I'm

your guy I grew up in Egypt I know the

terrain I know the people I have friends

in Egypt I've been in the wilderness 40

years I know it around here at my resume

of course I'm the guy who else could you

pick that's what he said

except it isn't what he said was Lord

Who am I I can't accomplish

I cannot accomplish a task of this size

and the Lord corrects him quickly Moses

I will be with you

wrong question Moses the question is not

who are you Moses the question is Who am

I and the Lord says to Moses change your

focus and Moses says okay well then I've

got another one for you here's one Lord

maybe you haven't thought of this one

but suppose let's say I don't know but

let's just say Moses says I go to the

chill of Israel and I say Here I am

I'm the servant of the Lord the agent he

has chosen to release you suppose they

say to me oh yeah what's his name see

now that was not you probably know this

many of you that was not just a test

sort of Trivium fact for Moses to answer

what's his name in the Old Testament

much of Scripture means who is this what

what's he like you know how God would

change the names of people when he

called them to a particular task so that

their name would fit their character in

carrying out that task from Abram to

Abraham and Saul to Paul in the New

Testament so Moses is asking what if

they asked me what your like your

character I mean this is Pharaoh after

all he runs the universe don't you see

or suppose they ask me that question

verse 14 of Exodus 3 God said to Moses I

am Who I am Moses if that question comes

up say this to the children of Israel I

am sent me to you now what's God doing

there is he just being repetitive here

it is Moses I am Who I am the structure

of the statement gives you the

information you need

Moses here's what you need to understand

here's what the children of Israel need

to understand here's what we need to

understand this evening God is utterly

independent and not dependent on us for

anything in order to carry out his

sovereign plan only God can say I am Who

I am

God's reference for his existence can

only be himself your reference for your

existence is your parents and their

parents after them and after them and we

are utterly dependent as creatures none

of us can say I am Who I am

Popeye notwithstanding none of us can

say it and mean it

I am Who I am God says to Moses here's

what you need to understand

Moses here's what you tell the children

of Israel I'm not dependent on Pharaoh

to accomplish my task because I am Who I

am and when I call you to do this

it will be done now that's why I read

the Catechism answer on the character of

God did you notice the attributes of God

in that list think of it for a minute

here's what I want you to think about

God is infinite now you think about that

we think about that as creatures as God

extended over endless space but that's

not what infinite means in Scripture or

we think of infinity in terms of numbers

so that whatever last number there is

you can add one to it and it keeps going

and going and going and that's infinity

that's the best we've got as creatures

God's infinity means that before there

was creation there was only God where

was God he wasn't anywhere because there

was nowhere to be there was only God

think about it you can't you can't how

can someone be and not be someplace God

is not constrained by space at all God

is eternal what does that mean does that

mean he lasts a really long time no it

means he had no beginning he has no end

he is not subject to a temporal sequence

he's not dependent on the passing of

time in order to be who he is

think about that put that into your mind

for one minute eternal no beginning no

end what does it look like we can't you

see that's God's point here to Moses I

am Who I am means that I am utterly

independent and not dependent on

anything in creation in order to be God

so here's the thing the book should not

be God and inscrutable evil the book

should be the inscrutable God and evil

that's the point that God is making to

Moses it's the point as well that he

made to job isn't it you remember what

he said to Joe when job was questioning

God about his own suffering how did Joe

put it job 24 from the city the dying

grown in the souls of the wounded cry

out yet God does not pay attention to

falling and you know how it went with

job became frustrated and he said to God

all right you and me it's time for a

conference we need to talk

I've got a few questions about all of

this suffering so what does God do job

40 the Lord said to job well the one who

contends with the Almighty correct him

let him who accuses God answer him

then job answered the Lord I am unworthy

how can I reply to you I put my hand

over my mouth I spoke once but I have no

answer twice but I will say no more then

the Lord spoke to job out of the

whirlwind

brace yourself like a man I will

question you and you will answer me

would you discredit my justice would you

condemn me to justify your

self do you have an arm like gods and

can your voice thunder like his then

adorn yourself with glory and splendor

job God says you want a meeting I'll

 

give you a meeting do you want questions

I have a few questions job here's one

where exactly were you when I laid the

foundation of the world or before you

answer that one job how about this when

can you bind the Pleiades can you loose

the belt of Orion

I'm just curious job the stars set in

the heavens where were you on that one

what's God doing this is an intensely

painful situation for job physically

because of his suffering but now

spiritually because he's being forced to

face Almighty God and his character and

job says I've spoken of things too

wonderful for me which I did not know

see the problem of evil has its

resolution in the inscrutability

of an Almighty God and the question

becomes do you trust him

God is I am Who I am here's the amazing

thing maybe you picked it up when I was

reading Exodus 3 God says I have heard

the cries from Egypt and so now is the

time to release my people from bondage

so Exodus 3 verse 8 I have come down to

deliver them you see what's happening

here's the amazing thing

why did Moses see a bush that wasn't

burning you don't really pick it up so

much in the way that it's translated in

English and it's not translated poorly

it's just hard to pick up what's

happening there because the bush is

there and Moses sees it and most

translations say something like this

Moses says I will turn aside now to see

this thing that earns it wasn't that it

what Moses is is watching something

miraculous there's a fire burning in the

bush and the bush remains a bush it's

not burning up it's not the burning bush

it's the unburned bush that Moses is

confronted with why because what you see

in that bush is the character of

Almighty God symbolized by the fire the

fire is in no need of fuel in order to

burn it is what it is it is burning

independently and yet what does the fire

do it comes to be with the bush it's not

abstract it's not aloof it's not way up

there

it is with the bush in the same way God

says to Moses I am the God of your

father's the God of Abraham Isaac and

Jacob I have come down now here's the

second inscrutable God is inscrutable

because he is who he is

here's the second inscrutable he remains

who he is God does not change because he

cannot change his character as God and

even while he remains God he comes down

in the person of Jesus Christ

the unburn Ingush is an Old Testament

picture of what God will do when the

time is right he will come down

remaining God for one purpose you know

what it is the Son of man came to die to

suffer and to die so that those in this

world who suffer and die will never

Eltham utley die if they put their trust

in him here's the thing about Anthony

flue he says in his illustration that I

read to you at the beginning that there

are sufferings all around children dying

and then he says this our Heavenly

Father reveals no obvious sign of

concern and I remember reading that and

I thought did did flu never ever in all

of his musings about Christianity did he

never open a Bible and see

that not only did God express concern

from heaven God came to suffer so that

suffering and death would be no more

that's what theophany mean theophany is

a manifestation of God we have that

manifestation in Jesus Christ Christ

came to suffer and to die now why did

God do it that way I'm back to my answer

at the beginning I don't know if I were

God I would not have planned a universe

where I have to take on suffering and

death but you know what scripture says

about this here's the mystery you want

inscrutability here it is isaiah 53 it

pleased the Lord to crush him any of you

who are parents out here here's what

it's saying it pleased the father to

sacrifice his son for wicked sinful evil

people why I don't know but here's what

I know

God does not sit aloof from your

suffering and my suffering God is so

concerned about it that the father sent

the son to die so that if you are in him

by faith your death is momentary and

never final you live even though you die

this is why we read that passage in the

New Testament when the son is on the

cross and he cries out that cry of

dereliction my God my God why have you

forsaken me

the only one who's ever obeyed and the

answer from heaven is for the likes of

you is why so that you if you are in

Christ will never be forsaken remember

how Stuart Hine put it in that him How

Great Thou art and when I think he says

that God his son not sparing sent him to

die I scarce can take it in

that's inscrutability we don't know

because God has not told us everything

about why he planned the universe in the

way that he did but he has told us this

when you suffer when there is evil when

there is death come to me because I have

overcome and so we may not know where

evil came from ultimately but we know

where it's going don't we because the

future is the future of God's final and

complete victory over suffering and pain

and evil in a place where there will be

no more crying and no more tears because

the lamb has overcome

let me pray and we'll take some

questions our God we would ask this

evening as we think together about these

deeply personal and difficult issues

that you would focus our minds in our

hearts

on the Lord Jesus Christ who suffered

and died that those who come to him

might live for Christ's sake amen

okay we have a few minutes for questions

if you would like to come to the

microphone you should know this is the

way I handle it in class if no one's

there quickly we will be finished going

once going twice gone up

yes sir um I have a question just to see

if one of the ways I've thought about

this topic can hold up to academic

scrutiny a lot of my hobbies are more

artistic I guess I like photography I

like music and when I think about when I

think about great artists a lot of times

they want to tell a story and you think

about great stories I guess the best

stories usually reach the darkest places

and then have Redemption on the other

side of that in like a great photograph

it's the contrast between the darkness

and the light that makes the mix the

picture or the story so appealing at

least to me so sometimes I've wondered

you know if you if you take the attitude

that God is an artist which i think is

biblical like the the Potter can do what

he wants with the clay a motivation for

allowing sin and suffering can be for

the story of the redemption to be that

much more compelling is that is that

something that you folks could study

this you know does that hold up to

academic or is that just well you know

the question is is that biblical truth

and I think the answer is yes okay yeah

it doesn't again we don't know why this

story why this plan but there's no

question that what you say is right God

takes what is evil and bad and he turns

it into something good all things do

work together for good to those who love

God and are called according to his

purpose there's no question about that

and that's God storing his plan of

redemption and that's why he receives

the glory so I think there's no question

that what you say is exactly right God

is an artist he's a creator he made

things thank you

yes sir I'm first thank you

very enriched by the conversation that's

far here's my question I've heard it

said that there is in God all good and

that is there is good good and that

there is in God good evil meaning that

it is good that evil is here for example

I believe it was SPRO who quoted said

evil is never good but it's good that we

have evil do you believe along that

train of thought that good there is good

good and then there is good evil that

ultimately underlines the the supremacy

and the sovereignty of God's work in the

Providence of the earth yeah thank you

very good question yeah I would agree

100 percent in this in this way on this

topic with what dr. scroll would say he

would make the point though wouldn t

that the that the evil does not reside

in any way in the character of God given

that there's evil God makes it good he

brings glory to himself out of it and I

think dr. scroll even uses the example

of Good Friday doesn't he the blackest

point in the history of the world we

call Good Friday why because it is our

Redemption but it's our Redemption

through the shed blood of Christ himself

so in that see I think you know this I'm

not saying this actually happened but

don't you can't you imagine that on Good

Friday that that hell was throwing a

party

we won we've done it he's gone he's dead

we got him on the cross and it was it

was a three day party didn't turn out

well because because then he was alive

victory over death so God takes good

takes evil and makes it good and I think

that's exactly right and that's that's

another good biblical way to think about

the problem yes or not I just wanted to

express a concern about the fact that

while good is or while God is completely

inscrutable and independent of the world

completely independent of evil I worry

that that train of thought would allow

for a type of manic II ISM in dualism in

which we have not ruled out the

possibility that evil is inscrutable and

independent of God and that it can exist

of itself okay you'll have to help me

I'm missing the flow

God is in screwed it's my fault I can't

hear greatly so I'm trying to pick up so

you're saying God is inscrutable and you

think that view could lead to a

Manichaean view not personally no but

you think you think my view

yes I worry that you've left the open

possibility that somebody could argue

that evil exists abstractly in our

universe apart from God okay good yeah

let me try let me try it this way and

see if see if this helps I think what

Agustin had right in his view of

privation in his view that evil was a

negation what Agustin had right and I

think this is thoroughly biblical the

only way you can pronounce evil as evil

is if there is a standard of goodness by

which it is judged all right so there

can't be an ultimate evil it has to be

dependent on a standard which is good

now this is the problem that those who

are outside of Christianity continue to

have I remember we had a few years ago

Christopher Hitchens on our campus at

Westminster he was having a discussion

dialogue with Pastor Doug Wilson and and

and Hitchens wrote a book God is not

great and then the subtitle is how

religion poisons everything now the

question for Hitchens which was asked to

him I don't think he was ever able to

answer it is what's wrong with poisoning

everything tell me why it's wrong

morally to poison everything what's your

standard by which you measure that see

so I think what we have to do then is

take the biblical route which is that

God and God alone is ultimate he is I am

Who I am evil came in and it is

pronounced evil because it is

weighed against the character of God who

is wholly good so there's no room there

for a Manichean cosmology or metaphysics

I don't think hi look of course um see

there go you're eight seconds now starts

over that's called that's called the

reset button you're awake now you're

listening well if God knew that Adam and

Eve were gonna send and why did he tell

them not to eat from the tree I don't

know

good somebody's got it set for every

eight seconds now

it's an excellent question what what

that's why I said I don't know why God

planned the universe in the way that he

did he told Adam and Eve not to eat he

told them if they did eat it was it

would be their fault that they would

surely die and that punishment was

carried out and now all of us die

because of it but God also planned that

in that sinning in that evil which was

their fault he would rectify it by

participating in it so so the answer we

have is we don't know why he planned it

that way but we also don't know why in

his grace he determined he would resolve

it in the person of his son okay so I

mean this you know you're asking a good

question and as many of you know this is

a question that parents struggle with

that kids struggle with that people

struggle with and we have to get to the

point that we say this I will either

trust him or I will not do it until he

answers me and who does that sound like

sounds like job huh so God why did you

do this and he'll say from the whirlwind

hold it let me ask you something where

were you again when all this started and

the words as Luther would say we have to

let God be God and you either trust God

or you are so enamored let me put it

this way provocatively you're so

enamored with your own mind and your own

brain that you will not trust God until

he answers you God won't have it that

way will not have it that way with us

okay so our solution then our resolution

is to trust God who has solved the

problem and then when we see him in

heaven and in the new heaven and the new

earth we'll have an eternity to talk

about this and our attention span will

be eternal thank you good question

anyone else

dusty

thank you so much

just a quick reminder if you filled out

a comment card or maybe you've got a

question and you just didn't feel bold

enough to come to the microphone write

it down in the comment card give it to

the ushers on your way out and then also

if you'd like to learn more about this

discipline of apologetics or you just

want to know more about this god Scott

elephants new book called covenant

apologetics and don't be intimidated if

you're not a philosopher it's very much

written with the non philosophy crowd

and view it's a great resource if you'd

like to learn more whether you're a

Christian or a non-christian so please

pick that up you guys are dismissed

thank you so much for being here